In which the blogger Deep Strength illustrates my points about exercise, health and idolatry

Apparently when I reblogged his post, wordpress interpreted it as a comment on his post, and so I got a response notification.  Having finally had a chance to look it over, I’m going to blog the comment, because it so perfectly illustrates all the points I already blogged and noted.

My responses are in bold, since he’s fisking my commentary.

And as usual, TPC proves my point by making random assumptions that aren’t true.

Another Christian falling prey to the idea that lifestyle-identity is great when it’s also idolatry.

Healthy living is now an idol. You heard it here first.

Yes the phrase “healthy lifestyle” is correlated with idolatry in the form of identifying with something that doesn’t require a distinct identity in the first place.  Pursuing more physical activity and eating wholesome foods should not be labelled “healthy lifestyle” because that is a consumerist view of the matter, which should be holistic for us Christians.

Going to a gym is not the only possible healthy lifestyle and the entire concept of healthy lifestyle is consumerist, not Christian. Living a life where physical activity is just part of life is the historical human norm and wealth means most people now have to spend money to live that way. But sneering at them for not adopting that particular mode of consumption (which in the case of this blogger happens to be self-serving “I work in the fitness industry”) is not exactly Christian or loving.

What consumption?
Gym membership? It’s certainly easy to work out at home. I’ve done it for years before.

It’s not easy to work out at home if you’re exhausted from a 3 hour roundtrip commute.  Or four kids under age 6.  Or taking care of your husband’s father with dementia and three kids under 5.  Or any number of other typical examples of what Christian families face as obstacles to working out even at home.  And that’s not getting into equipment (how to afford it and where to put it), since bodyweight exercises alone are not remotely enough to maintain physical capabilities into old age. Funny how these single men with no responsibilities always say the same old thing about how it’s soooooooo easy.  Yes, if you devote yourself to your idol, you mysteriously have plenty of time to spend worshipping your temple-body. 
Nutrition? It’s easy to buy cheap healthy foods if you look for sales, use your local co-op, and buy cheap starches like rice and potatoes. Eating junk food may be slightly more expensive at best, and is definitely more expensive in the long run when you run into health problems.

Cheap nutritious food requires a lot of cooking time, time which can’t be spent exercising and often not child-caring for the Christian SAHMs who tend to carry a little extra around.  People who home cook are sometimes quite fat despite using fresh ingredients and making everything from scratch.  And speaking of making random false assumptions, notice how Deep Strength is quick to assume I support or think people have to have junk foods, and how he also assumes a false binary between “junk food” and “cheap healthy food”.  He also assumes a co-op is readily available all over the country, in every county, city and town, which is a completely false assumption.  Most conservative Christian married couples with children (the people I am primarily concerned with and a big part of the group “Christians” Deep Strength was saying hatehatehate eating decently and being physically active) do not live where they have access to a co-op for food purchases in bulk.  

And I am not going to delve into the bitter hilarity of this single guy handwaving the logistics of shopping with little kids for bargains as “easy”.  

 
Ah, yes, working in the fitness industry is now “self serving.” I see where this is going.

Instead of “working in the fitness industry” helping people near him do more physical activity in their daily lives without going to a gym would be another option.

Already give free nutrition and training advice to those in the Church that ask for it.

“I hector people who need real solutions about how it’s super easy to work out and eat cheap nutritious food and then pat myself on the back for a job well done.  Wait, isn’t that what you said I did, but I got mad about the way you put it?”

Get back to us when you’re doing shopping trips, meal planning and cooking for the people who ask you for help.  Or when you’re giving them free personal training and spotting on equipment.  Or lending out exercise equipment you’ve moved beyond or aren’t currently using.  Or opening your home for people to come work out in, which is something that happens among men who don’t write screeds about how “Christians are allergic to health, except me!”

Mostly people have real obstacles to getting more physical activity, like working very long hours and/or care of others and living where it’s very difficult to do much physical stuff outside or inside.

Already give work-around advice, such as meal planning (mentioned above), brief workouts, bodyweight training, and motivation.

“I already SAID I HECTOR PEOPLE.  Isn’t that enough woman!”

This is particularly the case with Christians, who are more likely to be caring for little kids or old people, including the men.

Being “busy” is not mutually exclusive from being a good steward of your body. Another false dichotomy.

“Those people are obviously just lying about how hard it is to wrangle kids, get meals together that everyone in the house can eat and still find time to do physical activity for themselves.”  

It actually is very nearly mutually exclusive in a car-based society.  Which again, most Christians are stuck in.  I’m also quite upset by Deep Strength’s dismissal of real labor caring for the bodies of others with his sneering little quote marks.  Way to tell SAHMs how you really feel about their work as women, how valuable and womanly you think it is while promoting the notion that Christian women should want to do it.

Anyway I reblogged this because it’s an increasingly common knife jabbed in the ribcage of Christians by (usually single, childless, responsibility-free) men. I hope to do a bit more of a post later, we’ll see.

You know what responsibilities I do and don’t have… Interesting.
This is your only warning for being deliberately antagonistic and assuming evil of others. The next offense is a ban.

lol, just lol.   I think we’re done here.

 

Perhaps Deep Strength is out there shopping for ten SAHMs per week and doing childcare for their 35 children so they can all go to the gym as a group or something.  Or perhaps he’s organizing group cooking sessions of healthy cheap foods like the Mormons do with their canning centers.  

Somehow, though, I think someone who was concretely pushing against the major obstacles to healthier eating and physical activity would have written a very different post instead of “Christians are allergic to healthy lifestyles”.

But I’m just a housewife who tosses the occasional hay bale when my health permits and whose household typically eats locally produced meats, vegetables and produce, with very little grain consumption (we are a Primal household, to use a consumerist term to describe our overall diet).  And my children are in great physical shape and wear out all the adults around them and all the other children around them as well.  But the adults aren’t at that youthful level of vigor despite eating well and running around with them.  That’s my point, I guess.  We went to a lot of trouble to raise our kids somewhere that they could develop great habits and build a “lifestyle” if you will where being physically active and eating delicious healthy food was “my normal day after I wake up”.  And the costs for us and the many Christian families we know that made similar choices are that we can’t have that life for ourselves because there are things called learning curves, physical impacts of sitting in a car or on public transit for hours per day, and the idea that we’re all allergic to being as robust as our kids is the real evil-assuming.    

 

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122 thoughts on “In which the blogger Deep Strength illustrates my points about exercise, health and idolatry

  1. Color me completely unimpressed with a so called fitness expert who hasn’t even got the manly bits required to have a polite conversation with his Christian sisters. When the bad guys show up and invade our country, at least I know that the red pill men will run and hide in the gym to preen over their alleged masculinity while leaving the ladies to deal with real life.

    Like

    • insanitybytes22,

      I am imagining a 2016 version of Red Dawn in which the Wolverines spend their time sulking in the woods because they don’t have access to a gym, it’s hard to sustain muscle tone on a diet of cabbage soup, the MAGAZIN is all out of their favorite protein powder, and there’s no internet anymore.

      Liked by 2 people

  2. I think my husband may be more or less living DS’s ideal as a married father of three, BUT:

    –we usually eat 80% percent of our dinners outside the home (we have inexpensive access to a good college cafeteria)
    –my husband walks to work
    –he occasionally pops into the college gym during the work day
    –he shares an athletic interest with our tween son and they go to the gym a lot together
    –my husband has a professor’s schedule (lots of vacation, lots of flexibility)
    –we have a big house and are easily able to accommodate an elliptical machine, etc.
    –our youngest is now a solid 3.5
    –we have 3.0 children
    –my husband has very limited yard responsibilities
    –I haven’t been going to the gym lately, so we don’t have to split the time in half between the two of us
    –he has only started being at all serious in the last year (FIL had a heart attack)

    So, pretty much a perfect storm for being able to pull this off.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Come to think of it, there’s another biggie:

      –My husband is at a stage in his career where it’s possible to have more balance. 10–11 years ago, he was desperately trying to get tenure and we had a toddler/preschooler and an infant/toddler. At that point, life was just work-work-work-work-work-work-work and kid-kid-kid. It’s gotten a lot more balanced since then.

      Liked by 1 person

    • My husband has plenty of time for the gym because there is a gym, a cafeteria that serves really good, healthy food right in his office building. There’s also free a free daycare for employee’s children in the building and all kinds of other goodies. The trade off is that they expect you to never leave! People are practically living there. Dh is high enough on the food chain that he can leave when he wants to, so he is home by 4:30 most days.

      I use my treadmill for 30-45 minutes while my little ones are taking a nap or I push my youngest in the jogging stroller a few times a week. I can see myself having time for the gym once my youngest is in preK. No home schooling here. There is a very good private Christian school 5 minutes from home and all of my children will be going.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Yay!

        Awful fact–some kids “graduate” themselves from the stroller. I used strollers for long distances with my big kids until they were well into the preschool years, but my youngest declared herself done at 2, and my beautiful jogger has been gathering dust ever since. On the one hand, Baby Girl is an excellent walker for her age, on the other hand, I just don’t cover as much ground as I used to.

        Liked by 1 person

  3. Funny how these single men with no responsibilities always say the same old thing about how it’s soooooooo easy.

    YES. Why do people dismiss real familial responsibilities as fluff? NO, it’s NOT EASY. It’s not easy being a caregiver because you care for others at the expense of your own self-care. People think “oh caregiving is easy because dah man takes responsibility of it by doling out finances”– just NO. Caregiving is emotionally and physically exhausting because there’s so much more on the line for those who do it on a daily basis. Say if a woman’s husband does write out the check for the 2x a week in-home nurse. The woman still has to make sure her mother or MIL is cared for 24/7. I really do wish people would take this seriously, as the large aging population with low supports in place (and many with few or no children) is going to be relying on us for care. Many people in my generation, and in the one our hostess is part of will have to figure out how to shoulder this burden.

    People are gonna have to learn to get over themselves because waifu’s BMI isn’t a 20. There are more important things, like caring for children and aging parents. I ask, who’s going to step in and take over 3-4x/week to allow the caregiver time to relax, destress, and exercise?

    I won’t hold my breath.

    Liked by 2 people

    • The woman still has to make sure her mother or MIL is cared for 24/7. I really do wish people would take this seriously, as the large aging population with low supports in place (and many with few or no children) is going to be relying on us for care. Many people in my generation, and in the one our hostess is part of will have to figure out how to shoulder this burden.

      I have a friend who is going through this now and it is shameful how dismissive people are of her problems. Her MIL is living with them and needs full time care,meanwhile they have a nurse come in a couple of times a week while she does the rest. Her husband comes from a big family, but because she is the only SAHM they decided that she should handle it. The other family members drop in to check on their mother every once and while and expect her to serve them while they are there as well. She’s actually gained weight since her last pregnancy, probably from stress eating.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Nonya said:

        “I have a friend who is going through this now and it is shameful how dismissive people are of her problems.”

        That is SO wrong, especially since it’s her MIL.

        I’d be so embarrassed to dump my mom on my sister-in-law.

        Like

      • “She’s actually gained weight since her last pregnancy, probably from stress eating.”

        AMEN to that. My mother was the sole caregiver for my elderly grandfather for four years after my grandmother passed (before that, they both cared for him, as he was 91 years old, and although sharp as a tack with the keenest wit I have ever known, his mobility became limited and he had to use a wheelchair when out of the house). I was the only child at the time, and even though I was eleven to fifteen when we were caring for him, the toll on my mother was profound. She only had to worry about him, but it drained her mentally, physically and emotionally. The only help she had was me. Nobody could relieve her of her duty towards him at any time, because she is an only child and any cousins that she had lived out of state and wouldn’t have come to help anyway. Her health was permanently affected by it.

        These guys have no clue what they are talking about, but they don’t care. They just have a deep, undying hatred for women in general, so there really is no point in even trying to engage them. They hate women. Period. My guess is they must have had some REALLY bad experiences growing up. I have never found any women as evil as they propose, but my word…..their mothers must have been….well….”interesting”.

        Any thoughts?

        Liked by 1 person

        • STMA said:

          “My guess is they must have had some REALLY bad experiences growing up. I have never found any women as evil as they propose, but my word…..their mothers must have been….well….”interesting”.”

          Possibly, but not necessarily. Anytime you’re the one getting a kid to do something he doesn’t want to, you’re the bad guy. That effect would be amplified in a single parent home, where the mom has to be the bad guy all the time and isn’t able to deflect to “let’s ask your father.”

          Like

  4. I feel like the young single guys may not quite understand the relationship between time and money. Here (roughly) are the basic options:

    little money/lots of free time
    little money/little free time
    lots of money/little free time
    lots of money/lots of free time

    Little money and lots of free time is how a lot of people spend their single and pre-kid years–that was me in the Peace Corps and during some of my newlywed years. I didn’t have a lot of money, but I had a lot of leisure and spent a lot of time reading or messing around in the kitchen trying crazy stuff. Then we had our first kid–suddenly we had more or less the same discretionary income (maybe even a smidge less after a move to the big city), but free time took a huge hit–we’d entered the little money/little free time category. Eventually, we started moving into the lots of money/little free time category–but at that point you can BUY free time. As our kids grow up (*fingers crossed*) there’s some hope of moving into the lots of money/lots of free time category, but it’s going to take a while.

    So, the error that DS is making is not realizing that he is in either the little money/lots of free time zone or the lots of money/little free time zone, but that a lot of the people he’s talking to are largely in the little money/little free time zone occupied by most parents.

    Liked by 2 people

    • What’s interesting to note about this is for most people throughout history, the idea of “free time” was unheard of. “Free time” was essentially “family time,” and wasn’t directed toward individualistic pursuits such as exercise (as good as exercise is) or hobbies.

      The problem we face is, how do we incorporate free time with physical and healthy activities, all while caring for a home, children, husbands working FT+ hours a week, parental/extended family responsibilities, homeschooling, partially/fully working off the land, etc.? I think a lot of people are wedded strongly to some aspects of middle-class life and won’t admit it.

      This is why I believe a lot of these guys on the manosphere touting their ideologies of having the slim physiqued hot wife with 10 kids living in a house they built on the land they bought and farmed are living in a fantasyland. Phew! That was a long run-on sentence to encapsulate daydreams.

      Liked by 1 person

      • “This is why I believe a lot of these guys on the manosphere touting their ideologies of having the slim physiqued hot wife with 10 kids living in a house they built on the land they bought and farmed are living in a fantasyland.”

        My husband grew up exactly like that, 15 kids actually, in a house they built. But you have to remember this was 50 years ago in a very rural area and my mother in law was the sweetest person ever, but she was as round as she was short and she died far too early, mostly from overwork and bad health. These guys really are living in a fantasyland and they are completely unaware of any of the drawbacks to the lifestyles they claim to desire so badly.

        What they really want is to be pampered princes of the Hollywood sort, guys my husband would call city boys, wannabes who think being a man is all about going to the gym and having a hot woman on your arm.

        Like

        • We have a relative who lived that (10 kids on a ot of land in a house the husband built). The wife didn’t get fat either, at least not until she was in her 70’s either.The hard work of that life kept her slim. She’s in her 90’s now and reaping the wonderful benefits of having had so large a family. But her husband died of a heart attack in his 60’s. He was not fat either.

          All of this comes with trade-offs. If there is one thing missing from Internet narratives it’s the reality that everything in life costs you something and you can’t decide for someone else what that cost should be. My husband doesn’t have time to work out regularly. Even though he encourages me in my quests (including the occasional torture of supporting 5AM running events) he can’t fit in regular workout time without relinquishing sleep. The extra 25 pounds he carries doesn’t bother me one little bit.

          Liked by 1 person

          • Elspeth said:

            “But her husband died of a heart attack in his 60’s.”

            I don’t know what the circumstances were in your relative’s case, but rural living can be TERRIBLE in terms of getting timely emergency medical care and for getting quality routine care.

            “Even though he encourages me in my quests (including the occasional torture of supporting 5AM running events) he can’t fit in regular workout time without relinquishing sleep.”

            And losing sleep is also bad for weight…

            http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/excessive-sleepiness-10/lack-of-sleep-weight-gain

            Liked by 2 people

          • My grandma is morbidly obese and worked on a farm for most of her life. No amount of heavy lifting, dragging cows, and miles to the market helped. She was a widow, and I think it was a combination of stress and genetics. You can’t always beat genetics.

            If there is one thing missing from Internet narratives it’s the reality that everything in life costs you something and you can’t decide for someone else what that cost should be.

            Yes.

            Liked by 1 person

      • Maea said:

        “What’s interesting to note about this is for most people throughout history, the idea of “free time” was unheard of. “Free time” was essentially “family time,” and wasn’t directed toward individualistic pursuits such as exercise (as good as exercise is) or hobbies.”

        Well, I think there was some free time for men (the tavern or bar or pub) but a lot of those leisure activities were generally be frowned on, especially since there was a tendency for working class men to stop in at the bar with a week’s pay and come out with rather less than he went in.

        Judging by elaborate quilt patterns, a lot of American women did have some leisure at some point in their lives. Quilts didn’t NEED to be that elaborate to keep out the chill, but their makers wanted them to be fancy.

        http://www.favequilts.com/Patterns-for-Quilting/Traditional-Quilt-Patterns-Free-Traditional-Quilt-Blocks

        There’s also the issue that in past times, leisure might be disguised as something else or combined with something else: for instance a pilgrimage, isolation or taboos caused by menstrual impurity (oh darn, can’t do the housework!), daily Mass, a harvest, a husking bee (!), a quilting bee, a barn-raising, a religious festival, a wedding, a funeral, etc. But, come to think of it, these are almost all community rather than purely nuclear family events.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Maea said:

        “I think a lot of people are wedded strongly to some aspects of middle-class life and won’t admit it.

        “This is why I believe a lot of these guys on the manosphere touting their ideologies of having the slim physiqued hot wife with 10 kids living in a house they built on the land they bought and farmed are living in a fantasyland.”

        This, I totally agree with.

        There’s somehow supposed to be a jump from living a basically self-centered middle class bachelor lifestyle (it’s still self-centered even if it’s not obviously “sinful”) to a radical homesteader lifestyle, and I don’t think that is going to happen. Or maybe the wife is going to be living the lifestyle 24/7 while the husband lives it entirely on the weekends. THAT will go well.

        Like

        • Setting aside the homesteader thing, it’s hard to get enough activity in to keep weight down just homeschooling and feeding a large family in the suburbs or city. I know a lot of Catholic and Protestant young-married homeschoolin’ demure SAHMs of 4-6 kids who aren’t rural and despite stroller walks/runs and hours frolicking in local parks with the younguns, they carry some extra weight because it’s very hard to stay slim when you’re cooking for so many people and most of them need to eat all day long when they’re small. And *cough* mostly those women do have a relative or babysitter from time to time helping out or providing some recharge time.

          The only example I can think of a woman who was a Christian homeschoolin’ SAHM who stayed thin through 5 or more kids was a former model who converted to Christianity from “party girl” and married a guy making 600k or so per year. And she had the kids via IVF and adopted one, so she didn’t have five pregnancies in the first place, only two (two sets of twins). And she never hesitated to state that she used mother’s helpers and accepted childcare from her relatives and sometimes even then she found herself doing 3am laundry because it was quite and non-hectic then. She ran an incredibly honest blog, but quit it to focus on homeschool stuff for her kids and the charity her family started.

          Liked by 1 person

  5. Oh, and come to think of it, the unattractive transition from little income/lots of free time to little income/little free time that early parenthood often triggers goes a long way to explaining why many middle class people are not in a big hurry to make the leap.

    Liked by 2 people

  6. Funny how these single men with no responsibilities always say the same old thing about how it’s soooooooo easy.”

    “And I am not going to delve into the bitter hilarity of this single guy handwaving the logistics of shopping with little kids for bargains as “easy”.”

    That’s because some snowflake blogger somewhere wrote about how easy and joyful it is to go shopping with 5 kids. So, because one woman can do it easily, ALL can do it easily. Single men online pull their understanding of life with children from female blogger anecdotes. They only cling to the positive, because the so called negative ones or realistic ones, well those women are just sourpuss, lazy, feminists.

    “I’m also quite upset by Deep Strength’s dismissal of real labor caring for the bodies of others with his sneering little quote marks.”

    The tone is a bit like how they talk about women’s “feelings” or feeeeeelings. To them saying you are busy is the same as you saying you have feelings. They think “Its not about your feeeeelings sweetie and it doesnt matter if you are buuuuussssyyy, no excuses”.

    “The next offense is a ban.”

    Oh yeah bring out that faux dominance. Its like a virtual spanking they get off on by threatening to ban women.

    “People are gonna have to learn to get over themselves because waifu’s BMI isn’t a 20. There are more important things, like caring for children and aging parents. I ask, who’s going to step in and take over 3-4x/week to allow the caregiver time to relax, destress, and exercise?”

    I use to think that if spent any time for yourself (The much trashed “me” time) you were a selfish feminist. I learned the hard way the importance of recharging….that if you are always pouring yourself out and not replenishing, eventually your pitcher runs dry. The men online still think that if women need time to recharge that they are being selfish or that they are rejecting their maternal side.

    I would love to see a secular organization or Christian (makes sense for Christian but usually they don’t care enough to actually do it) that has volunteers to help moms get rest when they have newborns or a bunch of small kids or for caregivers of any sort. A team of volunteers that you can just schedule to come over maybe 2 hours a day to give you time for yourself, be it to unwind and read, sleep, or actually exercise and cook something healthy. Looking at all the supposed Titus 2 women–why don’t they start local chapters to do something like this. For retired women with nothing else to do but blog or write books, this seems like a much better and Christian use of time–to actually get out into your community and give back.

    I saw a headline that the birthrate is at an all time low. You want to get women having more babies–let them know help is available–free help. I don’t mean that too sound socialist either, but good old-fashion charitable help by older women.

    “Oh, and come to think of it, the unattractive transition from little income/lots of free time to little income/little free time that early parenthood often triggers goes a long way to explaining why many middle class people are not in a big hurry to make the leap.”

    Agreed and that reminds me of yet another headline that said people are more likely to choose time over money. I completely agree.

    Liked by 2 people

      • I think you guys are way too fixated on weight.

        Who cares if you carry extra weight? Some people are going to pack it on going into middle age and some people aren’t and WHO CARES.

        What is important is muscle mass, cardio health, flexibility, and posture. Fatness is mostly just an aesthetic thing. I blame the disappearance of supportive undergarments!

        Liked by 1 person

        • Because that extra weight has real consequences. People with more visceral fat are more likely to have cardiovascular issues and die than those with adipose, but adipose isn’t any “better” to say the least. And flexibility? Ha! I want to see how “flexible” someone is with a gut when they lean forward. It’s been well-documented how overweight individuals are more likely to have insulin resistance issues, which often leads to type 2 diabetes.

          I don’t know if anyone’s noticed this, but the world’s obese population recently hit a record and more people are becoming overweight in Europe which was known for being ‘”thin” compared to the North America. What they consider to be overweight would make most Americans feel normal, and that’s saying something. People aren’t normally 5-10 pounds “overweight”– it’s often much, much worse.

          Liked by 1 person

          • Whatever man. Most people are going to get fat after 40, it’s not that big a deal, and if – may a gracious God protect us from it – but if things really go south, that extra poundage is going to save your life.

            It’s my observation from my midforties, after a life that has included working in the fitness industry, being up close and personal with a lot of people’s eating disorders, and currently living a life that requires the kind of physical exertion not usually seen outside of cohorts of rickshaw coolies, that the single biggest obstacle to American women getting it together in this area is confusing ‘health” with “being able to fit into the clothes I could fit into at 25.” I was preserved from this fate by God making me thickwaisted, bigboned, high T, and five feet tall, so that even when I was in the gym 3 hours/day and could run 10 miles without even noticing, I was 120 lbs and had a 28 inch waist. The only time in my post-adolescent life I have dropped below 120 lbs was when I was nursing, and see above – I almost died.

            Women’s bodies hang on to fat. Women you see in the media with no fat and no muscles aren’t eating. Women you see in the media with no fat and muscles are juicing. Both groups of women aren’t menstruating, aren’t fertile, and are damaging their bones. The road to health will never be found by looking at your weight or your fat; you have to pick other metrics, like how much you can squat.

            Liked by 1 person

                • Abdominal obesity makes you less sensitive to insulin and leads to diabetes. These aren’t two separate things. Not to mention, a lot of fat at certain joints can prevent a person from using their full range of motion. This isn’t a matter of aesthetics. The reason why people get fat after 40 is because they’re eating as if they’re 20, not 40.

                  Liked by 1 person

                  • When I was 20 I ate a lot worse than I do now, but that’s not the point. Getting your 20yo body back is not happening. If people believe that that’s the goal, they will give up, and this is terrible, because any movement is better than no movement. Being fat and strong is so much better than being fat and weak.

                    Liked by 1 person

    • Lots of food for thought here, but the part about household help is pretty key. I didn’t start to really lose the weight from my last two pregnancies until our oldest finished high school. Suddenly there was someone else to cook breakfast and I could take time in the morning to work out.

      We’ll never be the type of people to hire in a stranger even if we could afford it (we can’t), but as our older children’s schedules became more flexible and as their cooking skills improved -man these girls can cook!- my life became markedly easier since the lion’s share of my time besides laundry and homeschooling was spent in the kitchen.

      A wife with three kids under the age of say, 6 years old, who is homeschooling and cooking whole meals for her family in addition to keep the house hygienic (let alone very clean) is probably going to carry around the baby weight a little longer than she’d like unless she is fairly wealthy. I think some effort, no matter how small is certainly in order, but it’s not as easy as it is made to sound sometimes. I am a big proponent of trying to stay healthy and fit, but suburban life does not make it quick and easy.

      I know a wife who, after her 4th kid fasted her way back into her clothes because they simply could not afford to buy her clothes post partum to accommodate the weight she had carried from the pregnancy. How many of us want to do that??

      It’s a real issue but it needs to be dealt with from a balanced perspective.

      Liked by 2 people

  7. I’d like to comment on the fact that the guys tend to envision dating as a somewhat more invasive version of Build-a-Bear.

    –start with a woman who (we somehow know in advance) is going to be slender throughout middle age, just like an upper middle class mother of two school age kids and a part-time job teaching yoga or jazzercise who eats a lot of 1/2 size Panera’s salads for lunch.
    –give her no more than half the income
    –give her at least 3X the kids
    –have her homeschool
    –make sure she doesn’t have any “free” time away from kids

    Enjoy!

    Liked by 2 people

  8. Here’s what I would advise the Christian manosphere guys to do: instead of attempting to design your ideal woman from the ground up with all the bells and whistles, how about studying the women who look the way you want your wife to look like at 45? I know a lot of good-looking, active 40-something women from our school community. I suspect that if you followed them around with a notebook (don’t do that literally–it’s creepy!) you would discover that many of the following apply:

    –they have a lot of time to devote to enjoyable physical activity BY THEMSELVES and aren’t expected to always have small children with them
    –a number of them have part-time jobs leading exercise classes
    –the whole family is seriously athletic
    –their school-age kids are in school
    –they have no more than four children.
    –they usually aren’t doing all of their exercise entirely at home
    –they have generous food budgets and are able to buy interesting healthy food.

    Liked by 2 people

  9. “This is your only warning for being deliberately antagonistic and assuming evil of others. The next offense is a ban.”

    …he typed, alone, in his room.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Of course he did. It’s because he only wants his own ideas of the truth. He doesn’t really care about reality. The fact is…..he is a brat. If you don’t agree with him 100%, he will flex his muscles and if you are a good submissive woman, you’ll bow to his folderol.

      God help the poor girlfriend if she ends up marrying him……I’ve seen guys like this and their wives years later down the road……the wives have snow-white hair in less than ten years. Wonder why.

      Liked by 1 person

    • He’s been claiming for years now to have “a girl” that he isn’t married to and isn’t on a path to marriage with. And whose father he insulted and was dismissive towards during time spent with her family. If it’s even the same girl, he’s used “current girl” and “my girl”, so who knows. I can’t find him using “fiance” though.

      Anyway this is why I don’t consider him very God-focused. donalgraeme at least isn’t stringing some woman along or whatever while doing his posts about advice on marriage he hasn’t followed.

      Like

      • >while doing his [Donal’s] posts about advice on marriage he hasn’t followed.

        That. That wins the internet.

        *skims new post* *couldn’t go 20 seconds without vomiting* Look, like many other people, I’ve dismissed positive thinking as a load of crap, but I do note that it’s corollary–that is, thinking about negative things leads to negative results–tends to be true. And I don’t mean incidental, one-off spur of the moment thought, but rather the-air-you-breathe-the-water-you-drink thought. So if one’s thought is “There are no suitable mates for me,” guess what? That will end up being what happens. Enjoy solitude.

        Liked by 2 people

        • DS writes in an August 6, 2015 “detailed timeline” post “With my current woman who I met in January …..”

          By all accounts, he is reaching the upper limit of his own “detailed timeline” for relationships

          Pre-introductory phase — before you meet and talk to her
          Introductory phase — approximately 0-7 days
          Transitional phase — approximately 7-21+ days
          Intentional relationship phase — approximately 21+ days to 6-12 months
          Engagement — approximately 3-6 months post intentional relationship phase (or depending on your denomination) [Not sure if he means 3-6 mos from the start or end of the IRP]
          Marriage

          It’s been about 18 mos. since he’s met “my girl” or “my woman” that he’s been talking about (assuming that he hasn’t changed girls and he hasn’t indicated this), so he should be getting engaged at the latest by the end of summer. The only other scenario other than he has a different girl is that he got engaged along the way but chose not to disclose this. If that’s the case a marriage should be taking place soon according to his timeline. He says, “When you enter into engagement you should have a plan. This plan means that after you get engaged and have a part or whatever you want to do, you should immediately set a date and start planning for the wedding.”

          In a Feb 2015 post he writes

          ” Overall, I think 3-4 months in the minimum period before engagement and should not be longer than 12 months.
          I select 3-4 months because people can fake how they are and their attitudes for a few weeks, even up to a month or two. This tends to be normal with most humans: they want to show only an attractive side to the other person. But eventually they will start to show their true personality, and from their true personality you can determine the type of person they are.

          I also think that 12 month is the maximum. If you can’t figure out if you want to marry someone within a year then you don’t know who you are and/or you don’t know what you’re looking for. ”

          Wonder if he’s figured it out 18 mos later…..

          Like

          • Wait–I did the math and the minimums add up to 28 days (!!!!) before you can get engaged–0 + 7 + 21 = 28.

            WHOA!

            For being REALLY concerned about divorce, these guys always seem to want to put the relationship on an express train–I guess they too may be interested in getting to the point in the relationship where they don’t have to be nice anymore.

            Also, come to think of it, there is social science on length of dating and length of engagement and divorce (not to mention age, education, income, etc.). But somehow the only piece of social science that matters is virginity…

            Liked by 1 person

            • His timeline is a little confusing. He recommends engagement 3-6 mos post intentional relationship phase, which is to begin around 21 days from first noticing the woman and last up to 12 months. I’m not sure if the 3-6 mos to engagement post intentional relationship phase means 3-6 mos from the beginning of IRP or at the latest 3-6 mos after the maximum of 12 mos IRP.

              Timelines are well and good but there’s more to getting to marriage besides just the passing of predetermined time limits. There could be many factors from finances, schooling, work considerations, family crises etc that affect when the wedding can take place after you’ve found someone you would like to marry. It’s not as simple as saying “Well, we’re at month 12, let’s go!”

              Liked by 2 people

          • Oh and this romantic gem from the same post which applies to the topic…..

            “One of my expectations of my current girlfriend is I expect she should always look good for me. If she is getting fat I will let her know to lose weight as kindly as possible. This is where you masculine traits will really start to shine. “

            Liked by 1 person

            • DS said:

              “If she is getting fat I will let her know to lose weight as kindly as possible.”

              I would love to be a fly on the wall to see THAT conversation and how it goes.

              Given the brisk timeline, how is the girlfriend even going to have time to get fat?

              Also, what is his plan for dealing with pregnancy/breastfeeding/etc? I suspect he’s either going to have trouble with keeping the future wife thin or with persuading her to keep having babies. One of the two is going to give. Very few women are dumb enough to put up with being both hounded to be thin and to get pregnant over and over again. At some point, even the meekest woman is going to say, “Pick a lane, @#$%^&*!”

              Liked by 3 people

              • Well, with him being in the fitness industry, I expect he will be making up a postpartum diet and exercise plan that she will have to stick to to meet his expectations for her to always look good for him, breastfeeding and sleep deprivation be damned. Obedience to his authority in this matter would be expected, of course, or she will be a rebellious woman. He says, ” You are the rock and leader of the relationship. You are respected. She is submissive to you. If she steps out of line then you gently call her out on it.”

                “Hey babe, you skipped the workout I assigned you yesterday. It’s 6 weeks since the baby’s been born and you’re not at your pre-pregnancy weight according to your mandatory weigh in this morning. You are out of line. You need to get two workouts in today. Do it while the baby sleeps. Those love handles aren’t going anywhere with you sitting around breastfeeding all day.”

                Ok, I’m done with the snark today.

                Liked by 2 people

    • Yes, it was hard not to comment on one of his commenters….

      https://twobirdsstone.wordpress.com/2016/06/15/thin-and-reasonably-attractive-but-plain/

      So, there are 2.6 possible unicorns in every congregation, but of those 2.6 it isn’t enough that she is slim and reasonably attractive, you have to basically be hot! This commenter complains that the girls are decent enough but they are plain. LOL.
      I missed where it says in the bible the God promises you HOT virgins. When I hear “reasonably attractive” I think pretty and what is so wrong with pretty girls, especially when a deep analysis has been done that there are only 2.6 possible women in every church.

      Not to mention, the depth of analysis in this post speaks greatly to the inordinate amount of free time DS has. Aw, the bachelor life.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Stone,

        That was very nice. I see this is also an issue near to Elspeth’s heart.

        “I missed where it says in the bible the God promises you HOT virgins.”

        Yes.

        “The only downside is that I’m in a big city, so the women have a career orientation.”

        Soooo, what should they be oriented toward, while they’re single working gals? A lot of women are career-oriented, up until we’re not. Also, it’s just not kosher to announce (apropos of nothing) to a group of young men that you are looking for an SAHM gig and you’d like X number of kids. I think they’d find that a little scary if they encountered it, a little objectifying.

        So I don’t think they know what they want or what it looks like.

        Liked by 1 person

        • Interesting that the career issue came up. Our daughter who is just shy of 22 (she earned her bachelors when she was just 20) just got a really tempting job offer. Good pay, excellent opportunity.

          Her feelings are mixed because she doesn’t want to be a career gal. She wants to be a wife, mother and entrepreneur. She and her dad are weighing the pros and cons but one thing is worth noting. She has no student debt and is building up one heck of a dowry. She can just keep adding to it.

          But you are correct that most men even extremely devout ones want a woman who has earned or is earning some money during her single years and before children come. Even he wants a SAH wife.

          Liked by 2 people

          • Yeah, this is part of the Mormon thing. The expectation these days is that the wife will build up savings to stay home with 3-4 kids in her late 20s/early 30s. And then the husband’s earnings can be more flexibly applied to retirement and other savings, etc once she’s staying home.

            Like

            • TPC said:

              “Yeah, this is part of the Mormon thing. The expectation these days is that the wife will build up savings to stay home with 3-4 kids in her late 20s/early 30s. And then the husband’s earnings can be more flexibly applied to retirement and other savings, etc once she’s staying home.”

              That’s very reasonable.

              Utah has a relatively high bankruptcy rate.

              http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/sltrib/money/55092511-79/bankruptcy-lake-salt-utah.html.csp

              Like

            • I didn’t know that was a Mormon thing. But they are very family/community oriented I understand so it’s not surprising.

              It seems like common sense for a woman who wants to be a full time wife and mother to work towards having some money to bless her husband and family with.

              This current economy and culture doesn’t really allow for most families (particularly with multiple daughters *ahem*) to present a big dowry to the new husband but they can make it possible for the bride to do so during her single years.

              I have a thought about the consensus is concerning what young women should be doing while single but it’ll have to wait.

              Like

              • Elspeth said:

                “It seems like common sense for a woman who wants to be a full time wife and mother to work towards having some money to bless her husband and family with.”

                Yes. It’s totally common sense, but I guess that conditions were so good in the post-War period that people forgot about it.

                “This current economy and culture doesn’t really allow for most families (particularly with multiple daughters *ahem*) to present a big dowry to the new husband but they can make it possible for the bride to do so during her single years.”

                Yes.

                “I have a thought about the consensus is concerning what young women should be doing while single but it’ll have to wait.”

                Looking forward to it!

                Liked by 1 person

          • Elspeth said:

            “Interesting that the career issue came up. Our daughter who is just shy of 22 (she earned her bachelors when she was just 20) just got a really tempting job offer. Good pay, excellent opportunity.”

            Yay!

            “Her feelings are mixed because she doesn’t want to be a career gal. She wants to be a wife, mother and entrepreneur. She and her dad are weighing the pros and cons but one thing is worth noting. She has no student debt and is building up one heck of a dowry. She can just keep adding to it.”

            Just meeting a lot of people is beneficial, even just for eventual marriage. (In fact, she might want to hold off on entrepreneurship for a while, just because it will tend to shrink her social circle to customers and vendors.)

            “But you are correct that most men even extremely devout ones want a woman who has earned or is earning some money during her single years and before children come. Even he wants a SAH wife.”

            Yeah–except for a handful of weirdos. I remember when I finished grad school before we had kids, I was dawdling a bit before starting my job applications. My husband (being a graduate student himself) EARNESTLY desired me to get a job right away.

            I just don’t get these guys. What do they think a single woman is going to be doing with her time if not working? Do they think that a woman who isn’t much of an employee is going to be a top notch homemaker or good at keeping up with kids’ schooling? Ridiculous.

            Liked by 2 people

            • What do they think a single woman is going to be doing with her time if not working?

              I’ve been asking that question for a long time, and no one seems to have a good answer. Maybe they expect these women to sit around and look pretty until they show up?

              Like

      • I also liked this from Stone’s post:

        “Don’t they understand that if they want a virgin woman, that also comes with inexperience and perhaps not as much confidence as a woman who is not a virgin. So, she will be more shy, timid, not sure how to speak up for herself when she sees a man she wants.”

        Right.

        Like

  10. I used to think this obsession with virgins was rather a fetish, but now I’ve changed my mind.

    They need to have a virgin because in order to be dominant in all things, they can’t have a woman who has any more experience than them in anything – but particularly not with sex. Soooooo, since the mastery, erm leadership begins in the bedroom, they must be the ones to lead sexually, which they can’t do if they’re inexperienced but the wife has some. Also, I think there’s so much insecurity that the thought of her having someone to compare them to is just too much.

    As for the skinny – it think the mentality is thus: “I’m the Man and I’ll be the arbiter of what you should do/think/be, etc. And God says it’s as good as coming from Him. So if you disagree, that’s rebellion = sin = you’re going to hell. Amen. The end.

    I know my badittude is showing.

    Liked by 1 person

    • I think the virgin thing is both/and–both a fetish and a sign of massive insecurity.

      Also, as has recently been brought to my attention, the Bible is actually very positive about young widows and remarriage (see Ruth and 1 Timothy 5:14)–St. Paul is actually insistent that young widows remarry. So it’s actually pretty un-Biblical to teach that men should insist on virgin wives.

      “As for the skinny – it think the mentality is thus: “I’m the Man and I’ll be the arbiter of what you should do/think/be, etc. And God says it’s as good as coming from Him. So if you disagree, that’s rebellion = sin = you’re going to hell. Amen. The end.”

      Pretty much.

      And let’s not tell them what poor older women in traditional societies look like…The smoking hot grandma is a purely 20th/21st century rich developed country phenomenon.

      Here’s what Ukrainian babushkas look like:

      http://www.greenfilmfest.org/2016babushkasofchernobyl

      Liked by 2 people

        • Sophia Loren has the genetic blessing of being pear shaped. If you’re not pear shaped, you’re pretty much screwed unless you keep the weight off. I don’t think people understand that difference.

          Liked by 1 person

              • I haven’t read all your posts. They’re really long. You’re talking about your specific situation as if it’s relevant to everyone, and it should be obvious that isn’t true. What is relevant to a huge number of American women is that freaking out over belly pudge is about vanity, not health. The exact same woman who is smug about not owning any mascara and doing all her shopping at thrift stores goes whole vanity hog over middle age spread and many, many, many of these women need to hear that just because they can’t get that pudge to budge, does not mean that movement and strength training can be dispensed with.

                Liked by 1 person

                • If I’m talking about my specific situation, why do recent studies predict 1 in 3 Americans have insulin resistance? I mean, that’s 1 in 3 people. Who cares about vanity when there’s a lot more on the line?

                  Like

          • I agree that being pear shaped or hourglass makes a very big difference. I could carry extra weight and get away with it completely (waist was still small!) right until I reached about age 40. I’m doing a pretty decent job of staying in good shape now, but it has not been without effort and sacrifice. You never could have told me -the baler for hire- that I’d one day be eating “primal” 3/4 of the time, but here I am and it’s the ONLY thing keeping the weight at bay. That and the running.

            Liked by 1 person

      • More babushkas (don’t be alarmed by the howling–that’s what Slavic folk singing sounds like):

        Based on my experience, these ladies have spent probably their entire adult years doing some sort of combination of working, kid raising, grandkid raising, and small-scale subsistence farming and canning (in much of Eastern Europe for many years, you had to grow massive amounts of potatoes and can your own cucumbers, tomatoes and jam, or you’d literally starve). That’s how you look after spending 40+ years of adulthood doing that.

        Liked by 2 people

        • Oh yeah–to point out the obvious, these Russian and Ukrainian women engage in backbreaking physical toil, but their lifestyle is not one to make them look good in yoga pants.

          But they mostly wear head scarves, so the Dalrock guys should LOVE that!

          Liked by 1 person

    • Off topic, but I’ve noticed the obsession with virginity borders on pagan/gnostic. The word virgin is tossed around significantly more than chastity, and that’s odd to me because chastity is all-encompassing whereas virginity is physical.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Maea said:

        “Off topic, but I’ve noticed the obsession with virginity borders on pagan/gnostic. The word virgin is tossed around significantly more than chastity, and that’s odd to me because chastity is all-encompassing whereas virginity is physical.”

        Yep.

        Also, chastity is life-long and is obviously applicable to men, too.

        There is obviously a lot of belief that if they can just find their magic virgin, all will automatically be well.

        From looking at Deep Strength’s numbers, and I think he’s in much worse shape than he thinks, if only 5% of US women are virgins at marriage. The reason is that that number is so small that it’s quite possible that a lot of the women are members of fairly extreme or insular religious groups or ethnic minorities (and some of those are non-Christian religious groups and ethnic minorities) who are not available to manosphere guys who are not members of those groups.

        Another beef I have with his stats is that the 5% at marriage depends A LOT on the guy. the woman hopes to marry. If he isn’t willing to wait, either she won’t get married, or she will wind up in the one partner before marriage column. The guys tend to talk as though virginity at marriage was entirely on the woman, but it’s obviously not. Marriage as a female virgin demonstrates not just the woman’s personal character, but also the man’s–it demonstrates that he is some combination of patient, understanding, self-controlled and/or devout himself–and these personal qualities are obviously ones that will be very important in later married life.

        Liked by 2 people

    • I don’t know what the local standard of decorum is exactly, so apologies if I’m violating it, but I suspect that a lot of the young Christian manosphere guys have very fuzzy ideas about female sexuality. I suppose that’s a testimony to their virtue, but I just don’t get the feeling that they understand the mechanics of female sexuality very well. The manosphere guys in general have very male-centered approach to sex–it always seems to be about pleasing him, which is (frankly) not exactly rocket science.

      Sex could be just a very extreme example of the general problem that the Christian manosphere creates a lot of really ignorant and unteachable know-it-alls. It teaches them not to listen to or believe what a woman says, which is absolutely fatal when trying to figure out what she likes. (Not that they care or think it’s important.)

      So, yet again, they’re setting their guys up for failure.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Not to sound like a radfem, but these guys tend to have pornography habits. There’s some old threads on dalrock’s in particular railing about wives being terrible for having issues with chronic, addiction-level porn usage.

        Like

        • TPC said:

          “There’s some old threads on dalrock’s in particular railing about wives being terrible for having issues with chronic, addiction-level porn usage.”

          Yeah–there’s a lot of suspicious defensiveness about porn in those quarters.

          Liked by 1 person

        • Speaking of which, I just found this comment at Zippy’s–

          [quote]It’s just from my perspective, I say WTF is the difference between Roissy and a pastor who denounces pornography because it weakens a wife’s power to weaponize the marital bed to control her husband’s behavior and make him behave himself. Maybe one is worse, but then getting blown up by a nuke is “worse” than getting blown up by a grenade. It’s either way you’re dead and quibbling over which way of arriving there is better.[/quote]

          That was just too silly for me to leave alone. And before the poster whines about me “libeling” him, it’s not libel if I quote you word for word.

          Liked by 2 people

            • TPC said:

              “Because pornography isn’t “weaponizing the marital bed to control the wife’s behavior and make her behave herself”?”

              Oooh–that is a VERY good point.

              Liked by 1 person

              • You’d think they’d put 2 and 2 together and realize porn use sullies the chastity of the marriage bed. Who wants to bring porn “lessons” to the marriage bed? Seriously? It’s not any different from asking a wife to stop reading smutty romance novels (which is chick porn, honestly).

                Liked by 2 people

              • Come to think of it, even if a wife was refusing it doesn’t excuse a husband’s porn habit.

                “But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.” –James 1

                Liked by 2 people

  11. I also think there’s a little bit of hocus pocus if DS is assuming that only 5% of regularly churchgoing Christian women are virgins at marriage–the 5% is a NATIONAL number, so it shouldn’t be applied to supgroups like that. For example, it would be unwise to assume that only 5% of Muslim-American women are virgins at marriage…

    Liked by 1 person

  12. As to what young women should e doing while they are single. The general consensus is that they should be working on being an excellent homemaker. There are kinds of *issues* with such a vague directive, but one of the most basic is that the homemaker of 1930 (I suspect that time period is the ideal most of us traditionalists are zeroing in on when the do it all homemaker was the norm) is not needed today.

    Sewing is a wonderful skill, but unless you love it enough to spend the money required for good fabric and a good machine, it’s usually going to be more economical to buy your clothes, even if you buy better brands. We started getting into sewing a bit and while I still dabble, if more pressing needs arise, I might go months without thinking about it. My girls are good at crochet (well 3 of them and the 8 year old has a real knack for it), which is demonstrably less expensive and also gives the chance to learn to create something with their own hands. But besides mending, slight alterations and hemming, there isn’t a need for a wife to be an accomplished seamstress.

    Gardening is a lot more pertinent today and it’s worth learning a bit about so we keep a very small garden (mostly herbs, tomatoes, etc) but again, it’s not a terribly time consuming skill once you get the hang of it. We all do the yard work around here. All the girls I mean. Cutting grass, edging, weeding, raking, etc. Most young people (let alone young women!) haven’t the slightest about doing those things. In places like Florida, it can often be cheaper to just pay someone to do it. We used to do that but then decided it would be a better deal for all of us to do it for a whole host of reasons that outweighed money.

    Most young men today are concerned about 3 things on the homemaking front: Cooking, cleaning (this includes laundry), and money savvy. Check, check, and check, as far as our girls go! And a fair amount of these skills were honed as a direct result of them having jobs outside of the house. This is how they got to where they figured out the importance of saving, prioritizing entertainment dollars, shopping wisely, etc. Even though cooking is something they mostly learned here at home, one of them (20) has blossomed as a cook because of her work.

    She applied for a job at a popular restaurant in town and got an interview. She got there and the guy told her he liked her but the only thing they had left open was a pretty demanding job as a baker in back of house. This place makes most of their breads and all their deserts from scratch. Most of the college girls don’t want to work back there he said. They’d rather work up front with customers and other young co-eds rather than back there with the guys.

    She asked him to give her a shot, said that she could handle it. Within a month she had earned a reputation for turning out product that was second only to the head chef in the place. She regularly gets the most demanding shift (pre-dawn) and way more hours than she ever hoped for since it’s summer. She’s banking away some serious money and her confidence in the kitchen at home has expanded a great deal. Because of this job her future husband is guaranteed to eat very well prepared meals and his wife is going to have some money to put down on the first house, etc. Organizational skill? Way better than I ever was able to instill in her. Another plus for future husband.

    She’s getting a crash course in man-speak too, LOL. All of our girls have grown a great deal as a result of working, and grown in ways that will only enhance their skills as homemakers when that day comes.

    The belief that a woman earning money is bad for her husband or ruins some part of her femininity has absolutely NO validity in the minds of most men, including the most traditional. And there’s a reason for that. My own husband would have been markedly less inclined to pursue me had I been nothing more than a pretty face who could cook a casserole and grow tomatoes. He would have nexted me. The fact that I was in college, working, AND not to proud to serve him a meal served us both much better.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Wow!

      “There are kinds of *issues* with such a vague directive, but one of the most basic is that the homemaker of 1930 (I suspect that time period is the ideal most of us traditionalists are zeroing in on when the do it all homemaker was the norm) is not needed today.”

      Right. And a lot of us wouldn’t really care for her cooking.

      “But besides mending, slight alterations and hemming, there isn’t a need for a wife to be an accomplished seamstress.”

      Yes.

      I’ll add that it can be handy for school play costumes–but that assumes the kids are going to school. (Halloween costumes are often not that expensive.)

      “We all do the yard work around here. All the girls I mean.”

      Reading the manosphere, one would get the impression that no woman ever touched a lawn mower or rake…

      “And a fair amount of these skills were honed as a direct result of them having jobs outside of the house.”

      Yep. I suspect that the workplace teaches efficiency and good technique.

      I feel strongly that the only way to learn to manage money is to HAVE money.

      “My own husband would have been markedly less inclined to pursue me had I been nothing more than a pretty face who could cook a casserole and grow tomatoes. He would have nexted me. ”

      Right.

      Nobody wants a spouse who only talks about their tomatoes. Booooring.

      Liked by 1 person

  13. Lest I have been unfair….

    Truly, each person has a right to his/her preferences/desires in a spouse; some things will be more important than others. And yet, sometimes one meets a person who seems rather the antithesis of the “ideal mate” only to find that he or she ends up one’s beloved. And then the only thing one can do is count the many many blessings! 🙂

    Liked by 2 people

  14. For the record, I have absolutely ZERO problem with men who have lived chaste lives desiring a virgin bride. Our oldest girl has, on numerous occasions, expressed her preference for a groom who has not been with anyone else. Ever. It’s not a deal breaker for her, but it’s a strong preference. Guys like donal graeme, who testifies that he has kept himself? Nothing wrong in my opinion with him desiring a bride who has done likewise.

    And while it’s true that the demand often disregards the reality of Christian conversion as it relates to divorce risk, there really isn’t any ambiguity in Scripture about the state we should be in when we marry. It just so happens that (whether you’re male or female) having that one criterion as a deal breaker severely limits your chances of ever finding a “suitable” mate.

    People -IRL or online- often forget that Christianity is a faith of conversion first and foremost. Being raised in a Christian household and taught christian values is not in and of itself enough to make a young person refrain from sinful activity. And I am not referring exclusively to sexual sin. Regeneration and conversion of the heart is a separate thing from being taught Christian values.

    We taught our girls Christian values and of the three oldest girls, there are two we sense have fully internalized the Faith as their own. But my husband went the extra mile and taught them about the fallout of unwanted and ill-prepared pregnancy, the damage of soul ties (that’s the bonding thing everyone talks about), and he even showed them some pretty graphic photographs of STDs. Our older kids went to public schools so he did not feel we had the luxury of tiptoeing around these issues. We hit it head on.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Elspeth said:

      “For the record, I have absolutely ZERO problem with men who have lived chaste lives desiring a virgin bride.”

      I don’t mind it that much either–except I suspect that a lot of these male “virgins” have spent as much time on porn as General Eisenhower spent fighting WWII.

      I suspect that that’s behind the looser relationship between male sexual experience and divorce–it may reflect the fact that a lot of male “virgins” are nonetheless profoundly sexually damaged.

      But they don’t talk about THAT stuff on Dalrock.

      “It just so happens that (whether you’re male or female) having that one criterion as a deal breaker severely limits your chances of ever finding a “suitable” mate.”

      Right.

      “People -IRL or online- often forget that Christianity is a faith of conversion first and foremost.”

      Yes.

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      • Yeah. Male virginity doesn’t mean much. Is he devout or is he just an unattractive man who can’t find a willing partner? If it is the latter then he might need to consider widening the pool to include women with experience.

        I know of a woman who married a male virgin. Before marriage she was impressed that he was such a devout Christian. After the wedding she realized that he’d been hiding a sexual medical condition and was hoping to marry a woman who wouldn’t notice. She is divorced now.

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        • >Male virginity doesn’t mean much.

          Err, citation needed? It wouldn’t matter if it was only seculars making fun of them but I’ve heard Christians* stomp over male virgins past a certain age.

          *Alte

          Liked by 2 people

          • Aethelfrith,

            I don’t know what Nonya means, but I would say that male virginity doesn’t necessarily mean much–or it could mean a lot of things. It could mean he’s a patient, self-controlled, devout and/or unselfish person, or it could mean he’s asexual, gay, autistic, has some sort of medical issue (like Nonya’s friend’s guy), or is just plain weird. (I realize that the negative categories have some overlap.)

            Some of that applies to women, but to a lesser extent.

            (I don’t mean that autism spectrum people can’t have simply delightful marriages, but it can be an issue.)

            Liked by 1 person

          • About porn–I have lately been noting a growing number of pretty secular guys (Ace of Spades, Doctor Nerdlove and Athol Kay) who have spoken out against or expressed reservations about pornography. There are a lot of non-religious guys who have started to notice how bad it is for men and their relationships with actual women and their understanding of actual sex.

            And then we have the Christian manosphere, which either doesn’t mention the issue or has all the excuses for it (their wives are refusing them, it’s just looking, hey, women are doing it too!, 50 Shades of Grey, etc.).

            It’s a pretty sad state of affairs when secular guys have more insight into sexual sin than soi-disant Christian men.

            Liked by 3 people

          • AmyP’s post pretty much sums up what I was getting at. There are a lot of men who are virgins who aren’t that way because they resisted temptation. They lacked opportunity and would not be virgins had the opportunity come along. I suspect that this is the case for a lot of manosphere virgins, which is why they spend so much time trying to learn game and hoping to trick women into finding them attractive.

            Liked by 2 people

            • This is exactly why I noticed the fixation on physical virginity rather than chastity. I’ve met virgins who are knowledgeable about certain acts or slang I’m not even aware of and I’ve been married nearly a decade. Here’s the deal– a person may have never experienced a sex act, but if porn is lighting up their computer screen, or they are engaging in or obtaining knowledge about very sexual acts or content, or allowing a man or woman to cross the line without “crossing” the line, they aren’t that chaste. I didn’t care to be with a man with a hidden porn addiction, or needed to frequent sex shops for the visual entertainment, etc. These are all sins which will eventually destroy a marriage.

              Male chastity is important because chastity is important. I hold a lot of respect and admiration for men who uphold personal chastity, especially if they are virgins, because our current culture spits at them for having uncouth masculinity. Chastity is more than physical– it includes the discretion we use with our eyes and minds.

              We should not allow men with disordered behaviors to distort truth. I find it incredibly disturbing to note manospherian guys, like Free Northerner and Moose Norseman, openly condone porn use and admit to using it. What a poor witness to bear.

              Liked by 2 people

              • Maea said:

                “Chastity is more than physical– it includes the discretion we use with our eyes and minds.”

                Yes.

                “I find it incredibly disturbing to note manospherian guys, like Free Northerner and Moose Norseman, openly condone porn use and admit to using it. What a poor witness to bear.”

                Oh dear.

                You were saying something earlier about false teaching…

                Liked by 1 person

                • Oh, I understand your frustration. But don’t think of male chastity or virginity as “less fortunate.” There is often no fortune if one does the opposite, and instead a heck of a lot more headaches.

                  Honestly? If some chick has a problem with male chastity past a “certain age” (whatever that is or means, doesn’t matter to me) why bother?

                  Liked by 1 person

                  • Maea said:

                    “If some chick has a problem with male chastity past a “certain age” (whatever that is or means, doesn’t matter to me) why bother?”

                    Right.

                    Plus, he doesn’t need to impress ALL the ladies, just one lady.

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                  • Chastity is a high virtue. We don’t appreciate it enough. And especially we don’t appreciate the REALLY good men who DO live a truly chaste life. And there are married couples who observe the chastity proper to their state…..you are called to chastity regardless of your state.

                    We often think of chastity in its perfect sense — namely, virginity. That’s not quite true. Chastity is, quite simply, turning one’s thoughts to God and how to give glory to Him in the state in which we are placed. It is using God’s creation for the purposes for which He intended. Quite simple, really. If you simply apply this principle to all matters in regards to marital life — or the single life, if you’re single — you are living in chastity. And we know what happens when we do that:

                    “Blessed are the clean of heart, for they shall see God.”

                    Can’t think of anything better than that!

                    Liked by 3 people

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